Transcript
13 March 2014
John Laws Show 2SM
Topics: Coal Seam Gas
John Laws
… Over the last couple of days we’ve had a lot of callers showing a great interest in coal seam gas in Australia and in particular in North Western New South Wales area. Now yesterday we talked to the Federal Environment Minister Greg Hunt. Today I would like to talk with Nationals MP Mark Coulton who’s the Member for Parkes about some of the concerns that we have been hearing from members of his Electorate and people in the area generally. I get the impression a lot of the people don’t have a complete understanding of the whole business of coal seam gas and I also suggest that some people have been caused to panic by misinformation. Mark Coulton will know much more about that that than I but I suspect I am right. Mark Coulton are you there?
Mark Coulton
Good Morning John.
John Laws
Is there justification to what I have said?
Mark Coulton
Yeah- I believe there is. You know people are anxious and upset and you know I can understand that completely but unfortunately in the whole process they’re only getting half the information. Information that is maybe from a time gone by in the United States or in Queensland before any regulation was put in place. There were a few cowboys in the industry and the whole issue is being judged through those eyes.
John Laws
Yeah. Which I think is unfortunate. I have read a lot about it and the exactly the same thing happened in the United States and same thing happened in England as well but water in an aquifer in NSW has been found to have a uranium level of twenty times the safe drinking level. Is that accurate information?
Mark Coulton
Well, from my understanding of the EPA report the water that drained from the evaporation pond leached those trace elements, uranium and some others, out of the soil into the aquifer. But I think the EPA which is an independent body, a fine of $1500 probably indicates that it was a low-level infringement and so once again it wasn’t, the talk of uranium coming from the gas wells, it was actually leached out of the soil by water, it wasn’t actually in the water itself.
John Laws
Yeah. I mean it’s a bit of a concern. Santos was given a $1500 fine. How the hell would that act as a deterrent?
Mark Coulton
Well that’s right. I think it is probably also an indication of the level of it…
John Laws
The level of it, yes.
Mark Coulton
..The level of it. One of the cotton gins were fined $140000 by the EPA here recently for an infringement so it gives you an idea of the scale of things. But look I am not trying to play down the importance of looking after the water John. I mean, that is what sustains us out here.
John Laws
You bet.
Mark Coulton
Long after gas and everything else has been and gone there will still be people out here producing food. We do need to watch all that very very closely but I think what has been called upon now in some quarters is just to make the whole industry go away and I don’t know that that is a responsible thing to do either.
John Laws
No. We’ve heard about numerous concerns about health issues associated with fraccing. What are the health risks? Are there health risks?
Mark Coulton
Look, fraccing is one of those words; it’s a very emotive sort of word.
John Laws
It is.
Mark Coulton
Basically it’s the fracturing of the coal seam and down quite a few hundred metres. A lot of the concern about the chemicals used in fraccing the New South Wales Government last year or the year before now, banned the use of those chemicals. So basically fraccing is high pressure air and water and sand and a bit of lubricant. It opens up the fissures in the coal seam. Whether there are issues, with other health related ones I can’t see the health related issues with the fraccing process. It happens underground and a long way away.
John Laws
Ok do we need to take these risks? Haven’t we got enough without having to take risks like this, if there is a risk?
Mark Coulton
Well certainly, I don’t think we should be taking risks. The previous Federal Government formed an Independent Scientific Committee to look at that. So it’s the first time that the EPA and the Federal body has a role in the development of these projects and so you know my personal feeling is that if there is risk there we should leave it alone. Agriculture is the long term future for our area.
John Laws
You bet!
Mark Coulton
Having said that, you know, the Green groups that are driving this, they could have run exactly the same argument on the cotton industry when it started 30- 40 years ago.
John Laws
They could have.
Mark Coulton
They run the same lines on GM crops or on intensive agriculture like feedlots and a whole range of things. So I think that we should be very cautious but that doesn’t mean that we are such a rich nation that we can turn our back on a resource that may sustain us for some years.
John Laws
I agree with that absolutely. Are farmers receiving proper compensation? Or are people virtually turning their back on the thing?
Mark Coulton
I’ve got to say John, in the earlier days in Queensland there was a sort of, they would sign a contract designed so there was no disclosure and so you had one farmer that was getting paid a lot less than another. And quite in some cases in the early stages it was a pittance and I think one of the reasons that a lot of the anxiety started in the first place was that basically the farmers were getting a really raw deal. And so now, I don’t believe that it is possible, it certainly hasn’t been tried, that if the farmer doesn’t want you, doesn’t want the gas company on their property, they don’t have to have them there. But also there is a need to negotiate a reasonable rate of return. What’s different in the United States is that the farmers more often than not own the resources under them. So if you are in Texas and you have a ranch and there is oil under it, you own that oil. (Here) the crown owns the resources underneath, but there has got to be a fair and generous compensation for access to the land above. But having said that if there is any idea of contamination of the aquifers that sustain the agriculture well then it shouldn’t go ahead.
John Laws
Well it would make a mess of your lifestyle if they start digging a hole next to your house or something?
Mark Coulton
Well in New South Wales I think it might be a couple of kilometres from a house if you are in an urban area and if you are on a rural property you can’t, you wouldn’t negotiate to have one near your house… Inaudible
John Laws
Does the landholder have the final say?
Mark Coulton
Yes. The landholder can. Without their agreement, now there is a policy put in place by New South Wales last year and to my understanding that hasn’t been tested in court yet, but basically the landholder should have the right to say what he’ll agree to and what he won’t agree to.
John Laws
And what he wants in return?
Mark Coulton
Yes, certainly. And it is my understanding that those, that the whole compensation package has changed in the last 12 months or so and speaking to some of my colleagues North of the border in that Roma/Injune area that landholders are now getting quite a reasonable return for the wells on their property and they are growing grain and raising cattle in conjunction with them.
John Laws
Well it has been worked that way, it be the best way for it to go. But we must make sure that the farmers are getting properly compensated.
Mark Coulton
That is exactly right. And my advice to farmer is that if you are not happy with the deal that is being offered, then well don’t take it, and it is as simple as that. But in the early stages before- one of the problems with this whole industry John is that it started off with some less than ethical characters who were involved in the early stages, and that whole industry is being judged on that. I had the library- the parliamentary library is a wonderful resource. I got them to do an independent study away from Lock the Gate and the other organisations into the well integrity in Queensland and cases of reported aquifer contamination and I have to say that it is very, very minimal. A different story to what’s been put out.
John Laws
Ok- Well you have cleared up a lot for us Mark. I appreciate that very much. Where are you?
Mark Coulton
I am actually, I live at Warialda John. I spoke to you some time ago when I was Mayor of Gwydir Shire. My Electorate goes from the Queensland border down to the Riverina and in goes from Wanaaring, where I was yesterday, into Mudgee. So it’s a third of New South Wales.
John Laws
How long have you been in Warialda?
Mark Coulton
All my life.
John Laws
I used to go up there and stay with, I think it was the bank of New South Wales Manager, he had a kid who was a school with me in Sydney. But I can’t remember his name…
Mark Coulton
I don’t want to be rude, but it was probably a little before my time.
John Laws
You’re being rude…
Mark Coulton
It’s a great little town, and you know I look after a great part of the world. I was at Wanaaring yesterday which is a couple of hundred kilometres West of Bourke and you know they really are stoic people out there, battling the elements, but wouldn’t live anywhere else.
John Laws
Well good on you. And they are terrific people, where would we be without them?
Mark Coulton
Exactly right.
John Laws
Thank you very much for your time
Mark Coulton
Thanks John.
John Laws
Bye.